Episode 9
Handling the Awkward Questions - 'Do You Have Kids?'
This podcast episode delves into the sensitive and often challenging question of how to respond to inquiries about children after experiencing baby loss. Siobhan and David share their personal experiences and strategies for navigating such conversations, highlighting the importance of acknowledging both living and deceased children without feeling pressured to explain their loss. They discuss the emotional nuances involved, including how the context of a conversation and their mood can influence their responses. The couple emphasizes that while humor can be a coping mechanism, it’s crucial to honor their daughter Grace's memory in a way that feels authentic to them. Ultimately, they encourage listeners to find their own ways to handle these conversations and remind them that it's perfectly acceptable to choose when and how to share their story.
Takeaways:
- The podcast explores the complexities of discussing children after experiencing baby loss, highlighting emotional sensitivities.
- David and Siobhan share personal anecdotes about how they navigate questions about their family.
- They emphasize the importance of finding your own way to honor a lost child.
- The couple discusses how they formulate responses to intrusive questions about their children.
- Humor is used as a coping mechanism in sharing their experiences with others.
- Listeners are encouraged to develop their own stock answers for difficult conversations about loss.
Let us know how you handle this by emailing us at info@graceinaction.org.uk
or on social media
https://www.facebook.com/GraceInAction14/
Twitter - @graceinact
Insta - @graceinaction14
And a beautiful heavenly birthday to Aden Jackson Wiggins on his 18th today
Transcript
Welcome to Life after Baby Loss, a podcast brought to you by Grace in action.
Speaker A:I'm Siobhan, Grace's mum.
Speaker A:And together with David, Grace's dad, we'll be exploring life after loss.
Speaker B:Hey, welcome.
Speaker B:I'm David Monticello, and with me is my wife.
Speaker A:Yeah, you just sound like you're doing an episode of Geek Syndicate.
Speaker B:Well, how else have you been saying?
Speaker A:How's your podcast voice?
Speaker A:Hi, everyone.
Speaker A:Siobhan here, taking the piss out of her husband as usual.
Speaker B:Let's do that again.
Speaker A:What?
Speaker A:I like it.
Speaker A:Can't I rib you about it, though?
Speaker B:Weird, though.
Speaker A:Weirdo.
Speaker A:All right.
Speaker A:Hi, everyone.
Speaker A:Siobhan here with David, who's now looking at me like, what are you doing?
Speaker A:This is us being real, everybody.
Speaker B:Never worked with animals, children, or your wife.
Speaker B:That's what I'm saying.
Speaker A:You love it.
Speaker A:Come on.
Speaker A:Yeah, we're going to talk to you today about.
Speaker B:Well, let's start with just in case anyone's coming in and doesn't know us and.
Speaker B:Right, so this is season two of life after baby loss.
Speaker B:And it's been how many years in the making?
Speaker A:Yeah, long time.
Speaker B:Long time.
Speaker B:So we did the first season in baby loss awareness week way back.
Speaker A:Was it before, COVID I don't know.
Speaker A: ,: Speaker A:I don't know.
Speaker B:And ever since then, season two has been coming, and this is it.
Speaker B:So go back and check out season one.
Speaker B:It was just, what, eight podcasts over the.
Speaker B:We did over the course of baby loss awareness week.
Speaker B:And they were like 15 minutes each.
Speaker B:So it's really easy.
Speaker B:And then come join us many years later, see how our voices have changed, how life is different and.
Speaker A:Yeah, well, David, there's the thing here.
Speaker A:There's a common theme here.
Speaker B:What's that?
Speaker A:Our baby's still dead.
Speaker B:Our baby is still dead.
Speaker B:Wow.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:So that doesn't really matter how long it's been.
Speaker A:Like, I'm afraid that she still dead.
Speaker B:But life does change.
Speaker A:Well, clearly.
Speaker A:I mean, we can joke about it, you know, which I appreciate, like, you know, some of you listening that you may not be in that place and, you know, if you're not in that place yet, I really feel for you.
Speaker A:My heart goes out to you because sometimes, and for a lot of time, and for a long time, it has been really, really shit.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:So just.
Speaker B:It's worth saying that our daughter Grace died ten years ago now.
Speaker B:So we are ten years down the line, and we started a little organization called Grace in action that just wanted to talk about baby.
Speaker B:Just wanted to have conversations about baby.
Speaker B:Loss about talking.
Speaker B:So we both speak where we can.
Speaker B:We're on committees that we can be on, take part in stuff.
Speaker B:It's all about talking with us.
Speaker B:And so this is what this podcast is about, talking about life after Babylos, hoping you can get something from our journey.
Speaker B:It's.
Speaker B:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker A:By listening to our story and our experiences.
Speaker B:So what we're talking about today, today.
Speaker A:We'Re going to talk about that question, that thorny question, do you have kids?
Speaker A:Or how many children do you have?
Speaker A:Or the one that should never be voiced, in my opinion.
Speaker A:Have you never wanted children?
Speaker B:Is that not a fair question, though?
Speaker A:No, I don't think it's anyone's business.
Speaker B:A lot of questions we ask people on their business.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Because nobody.
Speaker B:Curiosity means that you like to know about.
Speaker A:Everyone needs lessons in the art of conversation.
Speaker A:Clearly.
Speaker A:However, you know, if you do get that one, we're going to.
Speaker A:We're going to talk about ways of maybe handling that which don't involve punching the person who asks a question.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Do you have kids, David?
Speaker A:Do you have kids?
Speaker B:So you have four children.
Speaker B:One is 13, one would have been ten, one is nine and one is six.
Speaker A:That's a nice way of saying it.
Speaker A:I never say it like that.
Speaker B:Do you know?
Speaker B:What do you say?
Speaker A:No, I say, I've got three earthside, and I leave them to guess the rest.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:So here's the thing.
Speaker B:And I think it utterly, the way I answer that question utterly depends on the kind of morning I had.
Speaker B:Whether I'm in the mood, whether the sun is shining, whether it's raining, whether I've eaten.
Speaker B:Do you know what I mean?
Speaker B:Maybe it pays to have a number of stock answers because some days I'm more than happy to dive straight in and some days I just can't bother.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:You don't have to explain everything or get into the story.
Speaker B:It's not that I can't be bothered talking about Grace, it's just I can't be bothered to go around the whole, right.
Speaker B:And dealing with the look on the face that goes, oh, oh, oh.
Speaker B:And you can go, you know, it's all right, it's the way it is.
Speaker B:It's shit, it's pretty shit, but blah, blah, blah.
Speaker B:And sometimes I just don't want to do that whole roundabout.
Speaker A:No, no, I mean, the other way I get around that one that feels authentic to me and it feels like I'm not forgetting grace or, I mean, actually I never forget her.
Speaker A:It's impossible.
Speaker A:But, you know, sort of that still honors her existence is.
Speaker A:I say, I've got three at home.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:Which is true.
Speaker A:I have three at home.
Speaker A:And Grace is in my heart.
Speaker A:Right?
Speaker A:So I think someone in our sans group years ago said that, and that struck a chord with me.
Speaker A:I really like that one.
Speaker B:I really like that.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:But being a man, right?
Speaker B:Being a man, what often comes with that?
Speaker B:So what I'm about to talk about comes in two ways.
Speaker B:One, you go, I've got three at home.
Speaker B:And people go, and you could see a certain assumption that I've had a kid with another woman.
Speaker A:Oh, damn.
Speaker A:That hadn't occurred to me.
Speaker B:It also happens.
Speaker B:So sometimes people, you know, they'll ask, how many kids you got?
Speaker B:And I pause because I'm trying to work out whether I'm gonna say three or four.
Speaker B:I'm trying to internally assess what mood I'm in.
Speaker B:I'm trying to work out.
Speaker B:Am I gonna say, I got three earthside?
Speaker B:How am I gonna say, and while I'm trying to work it out, they got kids.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:How many?
Speaker B:And I pause and they go, oh, you played the field.
Speaker B:Have you been around?
Speaker B:So you get that kind of face.
Speaker A:Well, you do have that kind of.
Speaker B:Face, which I do think is quite particular to being a man.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:No one's ever.
Speaker A:No, no one's ever made that assumption about me.
Speaker B:And then what happens?
Speaker B:Well, you know, it was impossible for you not to be at the birth of your children, whereas it's possible for me not to be there.
Speaker B:But I think what happens then is then you have to manage.
Speaker B:When you say, yeah, one of my children's dead, then you have to manage the fact that they feel bad for trying to make a joke out of it.
Speaker B:And it's just like, oh, this is sticky, man.
Speaker A:Now, we've never talked about this before.
Speaker A:I didn't even know that had happened to you.
Speaker B:The benefit of doing a podcast, because.
Speaker A:Maybe we actually talk to each other.
Speaker A:Yeah, this is when we talk to each other.
Speaker A:Everybody.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Oh, that's really funny.
Speaker B:But you often get jokes and.
Speaker B:Got any kids?
Speaker B:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker B:And then someone might go that you know about.
Speaker B:You get that all the time.
Speaker B:Whereas, you know, you.
Speaker A:I don't get that.
Speaker B:No, you don't, because you absolutely know how many children you've given birth to.
Speaker B:Whereas it is possible for someone to have given birth to one of my children without me knowing.
Speaker B:That's not possible for you?
Speaker A:No, no.
Speaker A:Just to check.
Speaker A:That hasn't happened to your knowledge, has it?
Speaker B:Not as far as I know.
Speaker A:Sorry, guys, we digress.
Speaker B:Haven't had any phone calls.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:How many children do you have?
Speaker A:Yeah, sometimes I say three earthsides and one, you know, that's in heaven.
Speaker B:You say one.
Speaker A:Well, I mean, that's what I believe, but, you know, that's.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:So what do you say?
Speaker B:I've got three earth sign, you kind of stop there.
Speaker A:Yes.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Leave it open and then.
Speaker A:Or I've got through at home.
Speaker A:It also depends on whether or not I'm with the kids.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:Because sometimes that question then, if I'm with the children or one or two of them, because we have three living children, sometimes that question becomes, how many children do you have?
Speaker A:Which is more specific, you know, do you have kids?
Speaker A:You could just say, yes, how many do you have?
Speaker A:So one of the things that I've discovered which can get a little bit interesting is that our children, who have obviously grown up knowing about Grace, our eldest was nearly three when she was born.
Speaker B:And the other two, that dynamic of having one before and two after is quite interesting as well.
Speaker B:But that's a whole nother.
Speaker A:Yeah, yeah, that's another podcast, isn't it?
Speaker A:But, yeah, so, and our youngest two, you know, know about Grace, that we've got pictures of her in the house.
Speaker A:There's things everywhere.
Speaker A:We talk about her frequently and she comes up in conversation a lot and, you know.
Speaker A:Yeah, it's very matter of fact, which is really interesting because how they handle that is when I've said, oh, yeah, I've three girls, if I say that, and they're around, especially the younger two.
Speaker A:Actually, our eldest is slightly more sensitive to social dynamics and, well, she's that bit older as well now.
Speaker A:But, yeah, they're like, mummy, you're lying.
Speaker A:I've been accused of lying.
Speaker B:Have you?
Speaker A:Yeah, mummy, you're lying.
Speaker A:There are four of us.
Speaker A:And I'm like, okay, all right.
Speaker A:Actually, I wasn't going to get into it, but, you know, yeah, I had another daughter who died.
Speaker B:I have, I admit.
Speaker B:So I think, you know, I talked about being ten years down the line, what's different?
Speaker B:And you said, you know, you still got a dead daughter.
Speaker B:True.
Speaker B:But I think my sense of humor has changed somewhat, especially with distance.
Speaker B:And I actually find it, I love it when the subject comes up and the kids are there because I started to take a perverted joy in people's faces as they struggle to come to terms with the information he's hadist.
Speaker B:And it's like, I think the best ones in Marks and Spencer's.
Speaker A:Oh, yeah, buying shoes.
Speaker B:No, it was sweet.
Speaker B:And they were like, sweets.
Speaker A:Oh, I had a thing in Marks and Spencer's buying shoes.
Speaker B:We should stop going to marks and Spencer.
Speaker A:Oh, yeah, sorry.
Speaker B:To all the staff, you know.
Speaker B:Kira was trying to make up her mind as sweets.
Speaker B:And this lovely lady in the queue went, oh, girls, eh?
Speaker B:And I went, yeah, there's three of them.
Speaker B:To which Kira goes, no, daddy, there's four of us.
Speaker B:And she looks at Lenny and goes, one of them's dead.
Speaker B:And the lady's face is just like.
Speaker A:She didn't even ask.
Speaker A:She didn't even ask.
Speaker A:You just said three.
Speaker B:I know.
Speaker B:I was just.
Speaker A:You know, it was just conversation.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:And also Grace's birthday, her last birthday, we were in the pub and we'd taken a cake to the grave and cut it there.
Speaker B:And we were in the pub having a meal with some friends and I thought, oh, you need to bring the cake in.
Speaker B:I remember asking the waitress, is it okay if I bring cake in?
Speaker B:And she went, yeah, is it someone's birthday?
Speaker B:And Alyssa just went, yes, it's my sister's.
Speaker B:She'd be ten, but she's dead.
Speaker A:And it's just, she handled it really well.
Speaker A:The waitress didn't.
Speaker B:She was pretty good, I got to admit.
Speaker B:I hold my hands up.
Speaker B:You know, maybe some people find this a bit weird, but I.
Speaker B:Watching people navigate that moment, I've come to find quite.
Speaker A:Well, I mean, you are an actor and one of the things that you do as an actor is you study people, because, you know, that's your work, is recreating different people on stage who are not you.
Speaker A:So that, you know, you can't switch that bit of your brain off, really, can you?
Speaker A:There's something there about that, I think, but, yeah, that has been quite tricky with the.
Speaker A:With the girls.
Speaker A:And I did have to explain to them one day that, you know, I just said, look, I don't always mention Grace and that doesn't mean that I'm not thinking about her and that she's not in my heart, but sometimes I just don't want to talk about it.
Speaker A:And they went, okay, mummy.
Speaker A:But they haven't stopped.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:Which, you know, I'm good with it, really.
Speaker B:It's, you know, I think I remember I used to live in a block of flats and I think there was like six doors on each floor and someone at the other end of the hallway died.
Speaker B:And there was an ambulance came and they took the guy out and everyone was standing at their doorsteps just watching this.
Speaker B:And I think I must have been about eight, nine, something like that.
Speaker B:And someone just went, get the boy inside.
Speaker B:Get the boy inside.
Speaker B:I remember my mum saying, death is a part of life.
Speaker B:Let him see it and know it.
Speaker B:And it's given me a kind of pragmatic approach to how you deal with that.
Speaker B:So I'm quite happy.
Speaker A:And I also grew up in a household where my mum is a church organist and frequently plays for funerals.
Speaker A:And we used to have people, you know, grieving families ringing the house to speak to my mum about the music.
Speaker A:And one of the things I remember from quite a young age was like, you know, you reach that age where it's exciting to answer the landline.
Speaker A:Do you remember that, guys?
Speaker A:The landline?
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:I mean, now they ring my mobile, my kids that wouldn't answer my mobile.
Speaker A:It's not a problem.
Speaker A:But, you know, we had to always be super polite in case we were talking to a grieving family and that, you know.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:And then my stepdad worked for a funeral directors for quite a long time, driving and pool bearing and things like that.
Speaker A:And so it's, you know, and, well, and also I, you know, how you turn into your parents.
Speaker A:Well, I now play the organ and sing a lot of funerals.
Speaker A:So, yeah.
Speaker A:That sort of approach to death, I suppose, for me, has always been fairly, you know, it's very much.
Speaker A:It's just a part of life.
Speaker A:But the thing that I think was really important, especially in those early days, to really kind of.
Speaker A:To kind of tell yourself it's okay, like, you don't have to mention your dead child if you don't want to.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:You don't have to talk about it.
Speaker A:They are yours.
Speaker B:And also, it's not a betrayal of them.
Speaker B:No, if you don't want to talk, I mean, I think talking's healthy, but not all the time.
Speaker B:But not all the time.
Speaker B:By the same token, you'll not be.
Speaker B:You know, I love talk about Grace, you know, but not talking about her doesn't betray her.
Speaker A:Yeah, not mentioning her.
Speaker A:Yeah, exactly.
Speaker A:And it's up to you how you feel on any given day and what works for you.
Speaker A:Nobody else matters.
Speaker A:What about those times where you have to, like, as in, what about more formal situations where you need to, like.
Speaker A:I always find that a little bit difficult when you fill in the form.
Speaker A:Yeah, form.
Speaker B:Fill in the form.
Speaker B:It says, you know, how many dependents have you got?
Speaker B:And you put down three and you want to go, but I've got four.
Speaker B:I've had four.
Speaker A:You just want to say, yeah, medical forms as well.
Speaker A:I find that really difficult now because.
Speaker B:But that's wrong because you have the physical impact of having had four children.
Speaker B:Medical forms only acknowledged three.
Speaker A:No, that's.
Speaker A:No, not totally.
Speaker A:But then, as a non medical person, it's hard for me to know how to express that on form.
Speaker A:Sometimes.
Speaker A:There is particular language around that, as far as I'm aware, but it does, you know, it's a little bit tricky there.
Speaker A:And stressful.
Speaker A:I find that quite stressful.
Speaker A:I mean, I have had to ask someone before, you know, I have three living children, but I've actually had four children.
Speaker A:How do I put this on the form?
Speaker A:Yeah, it's really difficult.
Speaker A:And what about.
Speaker A:What do you think about for.
Speaker A:I'm thinking about some of our friends who've had babies who've died who haven't either previously had or had any subsequent children.
Speaker A:So their only children are their dead babies.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:I was thinking in my head then I was like, fortunately, we.
Speaker B:Fortunately for parents have dead children.
Speaker B:We have living children.
Speaker B:Actually, it is fortunately because I don't know how you cope with the death of a child when you've got no other child.
Speaker B:I think having a child.
Speaker A:No, because that's not your lived experience.
Speaker B:No, I mean, having a child helped us stay focused on living in that moment.
Speaker A:Yeah, it did.
Speaker B:It did in that moment.
Speaker B:So when, you know, our conversations never start with our dead child, they always start with our living children.
Speaker B:And the dead child comes into that because the living children are other people's focus because other people can see them.
Speaker B:So how you deal with that and what that does to you grief wise, I honestly don't.
Speaker B:I'd love to know, actually.
Speaker B:I'd love someone to tell us what that.
Speaker A:Well, I was thinking more what do you do specifically with that question then, in that moment rather than the whole experience?
Speaker B:So there's the whole thing about whether we started with this, whether people should ask.
Speaker B:And I am the kind of person who would ask.
Speaker A:Yeah, because you're a nosy sod.
Speaker B:I am a nosy.
Speaker B:So I'm genuinely curious about every aspect of people's lives.
Speaker B:And I'll often ask things that I shouldn't.
Speaker B:And I've learned to say, look, I might ask questions you don't want to answer, and please feel free to shoot me down if you do.
Speaker B:And I hope that I come at it from a place of love rather than assumptions of what makes you a whole person or nothing.
Speaker A:Oh, like having children.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:Or assuming that because you don't have any doesn't mean that you didn't want any.
Speaker A:Or, you know, maybe you couldn't have any.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:I genuinely don't know how to answer that question, and.
Speaker B:But I do think one of the things that's helped us in the past, while we were still coming to terms with being in this new normal, was we came to a place where we kind of prepared a number of stock answers that we could call on, depending on what mood we were in, which might be designed to shut people down or just to help us or just to deal with the matter of factness of it from day to day.
Speaker B:Just have a few in the back of your mind ready to go.
Speaker A:Yes.
Speaker B:And if that is to go, what kind of a question is that to ask somebody?
Speaker B:Just have that there.
Speaker A:Yes, absolutely.
Speaker B:It's like the Obama suit thing.
Speaker B:Was it Obama?
Speaker B:I think someone said, you know, in their wardrobe, it might not have been Obama.
Speaker B:Can't remember.
Speaker B:In their wardrobe is just loads of suits.
Speaker B:The same suit, but, like, a number of them.
Speaker B:So don't have to think.
Speaker B:Doesn't take extra brainpower.
Speaker B:You just, you know, you got the fray of the free world to think about.
Speaker B:You can just go in your closet, pull out a suit, not have to worry about it, you know, the score.
Speaker B:And I think maybe having prepared stuff does the same.
Speaker B:It means you don't have to.
Speaker A:You've done the thinking in advance.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:The mental load.
Speaker A:Like meal planning.
Speaker B:Yeah, like meal planning.
Speaker B:Meal plan.
Speaker B:Your response to tricky questions.
Speaker A:And I think whether or not you have any living children, I think the point still stands that your babies are your babies.
Speaker A:The ones you wanted, the ones that you had or didn't have, they're yours.
Speaker A:And you get to decide whether or not you share that with anybody.
Speaker A:That's up to you.
Speaker B:Yes, we're done for today.
Speaker A:I'm not sure.
Speaker A:There's no.
Speaker A:I can't think of anything to add, really.
Speaker A:No.
Speaker B:But we would love to know your take on it, what strategies you use, if you've got any, and if your situation is different to us, we'd love to know how you handle that, because we often get asked lots because we're quite prominent in speaking about these things.
Speaker A:People ask us, you know, what would you do in this situation?
Speaker B:So your responses will actually help us.
Speaker A:To help other people.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:So you can email us@infoaceracinaction.org.
Speaker B:dot uk.
Speaker A:That was very fast.
Speaker A:I think you should say that again a bit slower.
Speaker B:You can email us@infoaceraceinaction.org.
Speaker B:dot uk.
Speaker B:But also you can find us in grace in action on Facebook, Instagram.
Speaker B:What's everyone Twitter?
Speaker B:Because I refuse to call it x.
Speaker B:Yeah, so just.
Speaker B:Just find us on those.
Speaker B:Let us know what you think.
Speaker B:We'd love to hear from you.
Speaker B:So, till next time, look after yourselves.
Speaker A:Peace, love and strengthen.
