Episode 13
What To Say Instead
This podcast episode delves into the sensitive topic of what to say to parents who have experienced baby loss, emphasizing the importance of acknowledging the child's existence and the profound impact they had on their parents' lives. Siobhan and David share personal stories and reflections, highlighting the comfort that can come from positive affirmations and meaningful conversations about their lost child, Grace. They discuss the significance of recognizing the womb life and the love that existed during pregnancy, as well as the evolving relationship parents have with their deceased children. The episode also addresses the complexities of grief, the guilt that often accompanies the loss, and the need for supportive gestures from friends and family. Listeners are encouraged to consider thoughtful ways to engage with bereaved parents, fostering connection and understanding in moments of profound sadness.
Takeaways:
- Acknowledging the beauty and existence of a stillborn child can bring comfort to grieving parents.
- Offering specific help, such as bringing food or a listening ear, is often more appreciated than vague offers of assistance.
- It's important to recognize and validate the womb life experience of grieving parents, as it holds significant emotional value.
- As a bereaved parent, talking about your lost child can provide a sense of connection and healing.
- Expressing genuine curiosity about the deceased child, like asking for their name, can be incredibly meaningful for bereaved parents.
- Grief is a complex journey, and the relationship with a deceased child evolves as parents navigate their emotions.
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email - info@graceinaction.org.uk
Transcript
Welcome to life after baby Loss, a podcast brought to you by Grace in action.
Speaker A:I'm Siobhan, Grace's mum.
Speaker A:And together with David, Grace's dad, we'll be exploring life after loss.
Speaker B:Welcome back to life after Babylos.
Speaker B:And this is the second in our two part series.
Speaker B:Well, it's the second part of the cod class that we chopped in half.
Speaker B:And we've called this what to say instead.
Speaker B:So, without further ado, here we go.
Speaker B:You got some positive ones?
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:To lighten them.
Speaker A:There are some lovely positive ones.
Speaker B:Hit my head against the wall.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker A:She is beautiful.
Speaker B:There we go.
Speaker B:Normalize if she's beautiful.
Speaker B:Say it, say it.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Lovely.
Speaker B:It's like, just because our child is dead doesn't mean we're not going to appreciate compliments.
Speaker A:And underneath, my 36 week stillbirth girl was perfect.
Speaker A:Here's another one.
Speaker A:All she ever knew was the love and warmth of being in your belly.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:I love that.
Speaker B:It means gives worth to the womb life, to the nurturing that you did do.
Speaker A:That was definitely one of my first thoughts.
Speaker A:In fact, I may have to take back the statement about there being nothing you can say that will bring comfort.
Speaker A:That thought did bring some comfort, that she'd had nearly ten wonderful months of love and laughter.
Speaker A:And that's why I say the womb life's important, because fillets of fish.
Speaker B:She heard our voices.
Speaker A:I had craving for McDonald's fillet of fish and lattes.
Speaker B:Okay.
Speaker A:While I was pregnant with grace, she.
Speaker B:Had an eclectic culinary taste.
Speaker A:She did.
Speaker A:Don't think I've eaten a fillet since, actually.
Speaker B:But it's things like, you know, she came to Peppa Pig World.
Speaker A:Yeah, we went to Peppa Pig world, didn't we?
Speaker A:Went to London Zoo.
Speaker A:I remember nine weeks pregnant or something.
Speaker B:We remember doing face paints and we painted your belly.
Speaker A:Oh, Alana painted my belly.
Speaker B:And it's not directly, it's indirectly, but she was a major.
Speaker A:Sang for the Taoiseach.
Speaker B:Yeah, she was a major part of that.
Speaker B:She heard our voices.
Speaker B:She heard us sing.
Speaker B:She, you know.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:She knew love.
Speaker B:And I think acknowledgement of that womb life, of the fact that we did something for our child, is so important and lovely.
Speaker A:Your baby will always be with you.
Speaker A:Now.
Speaker A:Why are you looking at me, Ruth?
Speaker B:Because it depends on what that means.
Speaker A:Yes.
Speaker A:Okay, so this is what I like about this.
Speaker B:Go on.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:When you're pregnant, your blood and your baby's blood, there's an exchange of cells and nutrients and, you know, there's some of Grace's DNA is still in me.
Speaker A:Somebody out there might correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure I read that somewhere at some point, she is still in me.
Speaker A:Somehow.
Speaker A:I'm still physically, literally carrying her in some small part.
Speaker B:I'm not.
Speaker A:No, you're not.
Speaker B:Oh, thanks.
Speaker A:You did a stellar job at the beginning, though.
Speaker A:Thanks.
Speaker B:Wow.
Speaker B:Okay.
Speaker B:Didn't see that coming.
Speaker B:No.
Speaker A:I just think, anyway, your baby will always be with you.
Speaker B:Well, I think my relationship with my dead daughter is evolving.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:As I evolve dealing with my grief.
Speaker B:So in that way, she's always with me and she's changing me, and she's changed people I've met through, you know, me telling her about it.
Speaker B:Often people say, you know, she's always.
Speaker B:She's looking down on you.
Speaker A:Oh, yeah.
Speaker B:I don't want her to be looking.
Speaker A:Especially, like, when you go into the toilet, you don't want anyone looking on you.
Speaker B:If there is an afterlife, I want her to be doing, I want her to be enjoying it, not spending no time looking down on me.
Speaker B:And that's just.
Speaker B:That's just me personally.
Speaker B:Some people get comfort from that.
Speaker B:I don't particularly, but go on.
Speaker A:It's not your fault.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:I think one of the things that happen when your child dies is you cannot help second guessing everything you did.
Speaker B:And there's a certain guilt that comes with that.
Speaker B:And I think more so as a.
Speaker A:Woman, especially when your child actually dies inside you.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:And I think a lot of the time, it's a confluence of factors that were beyond your control, even though it may have been in your body.
Speaker A:Yes.
Speaker B:Your watch.
Speaker A:They died on your watch.
Speaker B:Every woman does the best they can.
Speaker B:And combating that guilt is hard.
Speaker B:You know, we questioned so many things we did.
Speaker B:And, you know, someone might say that, and we might choose not to believe it's not our fault, but I think it's a good thing to hear.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Polly's one of our midwives who has actually been with us in some shape or form through all of our babies, and thankfully, was able to be present for Elissa's birth, which was lovely and sort of full circle.
Speaker A:And I remember her saying to me, I don't know if it was after grace died or if it was during the antenatal appointments for Kira.
Speaker A:And she said, I was talking about how it's so hard not to second guess everything you do.
Speaker A:You just second guess everything you do.
Speaker A:Like, you know, if I do this, will this baby die if I.
Speaker A:And she said, well, what did you, like, turn kind of 45 degrees in bed one night.
Speaker A:Is that what did it?
Speaker A:You don't know.
Speaker A:You just don't know.
Speaker A:And in actual fact, there are so many variables.
Speaker A:There are so many variables.
Speaker A:The variables are infinite that you cannot possibly question all of them and you cannot worry about all of them.
Speaker A:And I.
Speaker A:I found that really helpful, especially during subsequent pregnancy, because it enabled me to go, okay, what are the variables I can control?
Speaker A:What control do I have?
Speaker A:You know what?
Speaker A:The one thing I can do that is more important than anything else?
Speaker A:I can keep an eye on the baby's movements.
Speaker A:That gave me a real sense of power and control.
Speaker A:If I'm worried, I can go and get checked out.
Speaker A:Knowing that I could do that really helped.
Speaker A:Do you want another one?
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:I'm sorry.
Speaker A:I know how much you wanted this.
Speaker A:I'm here for you.
Speaker B:Oh, there we go.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:Lovely.
Speaker A:That's just beautiful for me.
Speaker A:I'd like them to specify how they're here for me.
Speaker A:A little bit more like, you know, do you want.
Speaker A:Should I bring some food?
Speaker B:I just think it's really hard.
Speaker B:I think it's hard because people always say, let me know what I can do.
Speaker B:And the problem is you don't know.
Speaker B:So I'm going to tell you what you could do if you are someone who is in a position to support Nando's simple.
Speaker B:No, I'm not joking.
Speaker B:Nando's don't bring me flowers, bring me a Nando's voucher.
Speaker B:Because one of the things.
Speaker B:We've got so many flowers.
Speaker B:Okay, stop.
Speaker B:If you're going to send flowers, send a vase.
Speaker B:Because we ran out of vases.
Speaker B:Had to send someone out to the shop to buy a vase.
Speaker B:And actually, at that point, we didn't know what was going on.
Speaker B:We couldn't organize anything.
Speaker B:So come, bring food, leave it on the table and go.
Speaker A:My friend Sophie sent us a whole shop.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:Brilliant.
Speaker B:Brilliant.
Speaker A:Yeah, we were lucky, actually.
Speaker A:We did have quite a few people who brought us food.
Speaker A:And I remember maybe about four or five days after grace was born, I remember eating cake for breakfast, maybe some cake your auntie Ellen made.
Speaker A:And I remember thinking, oh, what are you doing?
Speaker A:Why are you eating cake for breakfast?
Speaker A:And I thought, give yourself a break.
Speaker A:Your baby just died.
Speaker A:You can eat cake for breakfast if you want, but at least we had something to, you know, we had something to eat.
Speaker A:I didn't have to think about it because I was really hungry.
Speaker A:Oh, my goodness me.
Speaker A:I always had this idea that grief would kind of leave me not ever wanting to eat anything.
Speaker B:But your body's very cool.
Speaker A:Well, yeah, well, my body had just had a baby and my milk was coming in, and I was really, really, really hungry because my body thought I was feeding a baby.
Speaker A:Why don't we talk about our own experience?
Speaker A:What's the most kind of positive comment that anyone's ever said to you?
Speaker B:I think it was the fact it was, again, Sophie, the midwife, she said, we've learned so much from grace.
Speaker B:And this was literally, Grace had been dead, what, maybe 24 hours at that point?
Speaker B:And she said, we've learned so much from grace.
Speaker B:And that was because a wonderful midwife called Katief did something extraordinary.
Speaker B:She read our notes and she saw that we'd wanted a water birth.
Speaker B:And she goes, you know, we've never done this with a stillbirth before, but if you want, I'll stick my neck out and see if we can get the pool.
Speaker B:And I think Sophie came in afterwards.
Speaker B:She goes, I don't know why.
Speaker B:We've never even thought of doing it before, but thanks to Grace, that's something we'll do now.
Speaker B:She goes, we've learned that from grace.
Speaker B:And it was the fact that 24 hours after Grace died, she'd made an impact.
Speaker A:Hmm.
Speaker B:I don't know.
Speaker B:A sense of validity.
Speaker B:I don't know.
Speaker B:It all ties into that she was real, she existed kind of thing.
Speaker A:The other thing, I think that's quite interesting that it hasn't happened to me necessarily, but I know has been an issue for other women that after their baby died, you know, you still have a birth experience, you still have postnatal challenges, recovery, things going on, and that somehow women, they need to talk about that, too, but find it very difficult to do that because they feel like they can't, because they don't have a living baby in their arms.
Speaker A:People talk about their birth experiences quite a lot when you've had a baby, it's kind of quite normal because it's a massive thing.
Speaker A:And actually, to be able to do that is wonderful.
Speaker A:I love it when people say, how was Grace born?
Speaker A:And I'm like, well, I'm able to tell them.
Speaker A:Certainly compared to our other three children, actually, we had Grace in hospital.
Speaker A:We had some kind of an augmentation, but we still had her in a pool.
Speaker A:I mean, that's what I did.
Speaker B:Often when I see friends and I'm a bit fascinated by birth, when I see friends and they've had a baby, I said, oh, how was the birth?
Speaker B:And I'm like, there's, I don't know, maybe some people don't want to talk about that, but for me, that's part of normalising it, because you've still had a birth experience, like you as a mother, me as a father, yeah.
Speaker B:You know, and I would like to talk about that as much as my other children because it happens.
Speaker A:Well, and the other thing is, for instance, I have recently went to the GP because after having had four babies, I need some help.
Speaker A:And my GP, she's fairly new to me because fortunately, I don't have to go to the GP very often and I don't really have a relationship with her.
Speaker A:So she said to me, so you've got three children, is that right?
Speaker A:And I said, yes, but I've had four.
Speaker A:You know, I had another daughter who was stillborn at term, so my current gynaecological challenges are massively impacted by the fact that I had four babies at term, although I only have three living babies and she didn't really know how to handle that at all.
Speaker A:And I'm like, seriously, you've got my notes right in front of you.
Speaker A:It's there.
Speaker A:I've had four babies.
Speaker A:And actually, that is really pertinent to what I'm doing.
Speaker B:It's medically important.
Speaker B:And who was telling us about their GP not acknowledging their stillborn child when talking about births?
Speaker B:Or.
Speaker B:I can't remember.
Speaker A:I can't know.
Speaker B:Someone was telling us recently and I was like, but it's pertinent.
Speaker A:I remember you telling me, just to get back to our positive and negative feedback, I remember you telling me about somebody you bumped into.
Speaker A:They hadn't seen you for a while and had no idea that we'd had Grace and that Grace had died.
Speaker A:And I had said, oh, what was her name?
Speaker B:Yeah, that is.
Speaker A:That's got to be the best thing.
Speaker B:That is probably the single best thing anyone can do.
Speaker A:How big was she?
Speaker A:You know, what did she look like?
Speaker A:I don't know where she buried.
Speaker A:Did you have a funeral or did you bury her or cremate her?
Speaker A:Anything?
Speaker A:There are some people who do not like talking about their children, and I totally understand that, but I think you'll find most of those people.
Speaker A:You wouldn't even get to the beginning of that kind of a conversation, because if you bump into someone you haven't seen for a long time, they say, how are you?
Speaker A:They probably go, I'm okay, and not tell you anything else, so they wouldn't even give you a way in.
Speaker A:And sometimes I am like that because actually I'm not in a mood to talk.
Speaker A:But if I am in a mood to talk, I'm going to give you a way in, because there's nothing I like more than talking about my darling Grace, because I get to talk about my living children an awful lot all the time, because they are so vibrant and present in our lives.
Speaker B:And I can't imagine what it's like if the child you lose is your first child.
Speaker B:And I'm imagining maybe someone correct me that.
Speaker B:Why would you not want to talk about them?
Speaker A:I know from a recent conversation with a babyloss mum who we've had the pleasure to come to know in the last year, Corinna, we were talking about this recently and she said she really struggles with that because Alfie is her first child.
Speaker A:And how does she describe herself?
Speaker A:Does that not make her a mum?
Speaker A:Because, you know, how many children do you have?
Speaker A:Well, I have Alfie.
Speaker A:She has Alfie.
Speaker B:Well, like I said, she is a mom.
Speaker B:My relationship with Grace is always evolving as I change, and her relationship with Alfie is a significant one.
Speaker A:But there must be nothing better than somebody actually acknowledging the fact that you are a mum.
Speaker A:That must be beautiful.
Speaker A:What a lovely thing to say.
Speaker A:So what do you think people should say?
Speaker A:What advice could we give?
Speaker B:We've already said it.
Speaker B:What's their name?
Speaker B:Aren't they beautiful?
Speaker B:Look at their fingers.
Speaker B:Who do they look like?
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Anything that normal.
Speaker A:I'm a big fan.
Speaker A:If you haven't got a clue, don't say anything.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:Or, I'm really sorry.
Speaker A:I don't know what to say.
Speaker B:I've had people just come up and they obviously didn't know what to say and just put my hand on my shoulder and that was enough.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Do you know what I always liked doesn't happen so much anymore is the people who haven't seen you for a while look you in the eye really meaningfully and say, how are you?
Speaker A:It's the how are you that means I'm here for you if you want to tell me how crap it is for you at the moment.
Speaker B:I remember before we'd given birth, that's it.
Speaker B:We'd gone home after the news had dropped.
Speaker B:We'd gone home for a couple hours and we came back and in the hospital car park, we met Mars Ardula and Pete, my brother.
Speaker B:And Pete just came straight up to me and hugged me.
Speaker B:He didn't know what to say, so he just hugged me and we cried together, you know, and that was enough.
Speaker B:I had a friend whose mum died and I saw it on Facebook, you know, I saw him later that week and I just went up to him and I went shit in it.
Speaker B:And he went, oh, thank God.
Speaker B:And he said that because he was so fed up with people pitying him and being sorry.
Speaker B:He just wanted someone to acknowledge that it was shit.
Speaker B:I tell you what, why don't you let us know what worked for you in terms of good stuff.
Speaker B:Let us know what you wish people had said or things that people did say that were really good.
Speaker B:We can read them out and pass it on.
Speaker B:Yeah, get in touch.
Speaker B:Let us know what you thought, the stuff that really broke you down, the things that should have that people said to you that they really shouldn't.
Speaker B:If you feel the need to vent, then let us know.
Speaker B:But more importantly, let us know the things that people did that were good and what you'd advise from your experience.
Speaker A:Lots of ideas there for what to say and maybe thoughts around how to deal with it when people don't get it right.
Speaker B:So you can contact us@infolracingaction.org dot uk or we have Facebook, Twitter and Instagram accounts under the name Grace in action.
Speaker B:So go search us out, let us know your thoughts.
Speaker B:And if you fancy supporting our efforts here, it's kofi.com gracingaction and you can make a little donation to our costs and we would appreciate that greatly.
Speaker B:Losing words so with that, this is life after Babyloss.
Speaker B:Take care of yourselves.
Speaker A:Peace, love and strengthen.
